kirjavaa
dæmian
[Bane] -searching for answers-
Posts: 124
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Post by kirjavaa on Jan 22, 2005 16:56:39 GMT -5
I only ask because i liked and agreed with all of it accept the last line. I think faith is for people who dont want to know the truth. But thats my opinon. Well thank you...I hope you know that the faith I mean't isn't necesarily faith in a particular religion...More like faith in whatever it is you discover through your doubts and your questions, even if it means you have absolute unshakable faith that nothing of the spiritual world exists in this universe...It basically speaks about my own attitudes towards life; always questioning everything in order to find the truth.
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Post by cock of teh walk on Jan 22, 2005 17:00:14 GMT -5
its a good attitude. i have that attitude about my own daemon actually , always wanting to be truthful and all, and I know Im nothing special, and my daemons not a crazy looking original really unique animal, but Im cool with that. People get it drilled into their heads when their kids that they are special, and really, its just not true. In the end, everybody only cares about number 1. Only some of us can be great.
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kirjavaa
dæmian
[Bane] -searching for answers-
Posts: 124
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Post by kirjavaa on Jan 22, 2005 17:12:20 GMT -5
It's not something you can explain. You just know. Like when someone is giving you directions in a place you've never been before, and they describe something and say 'you'll know when you see it' and it's true. You'll believe when you encounter your daemon. Truely encounter him. It's easy enough to disregard it after imagining a conversation, but when you have a real one, you'll know. You'll know that you aren't just imagining it. Thank you Hannah, that helped immensly. You just turned it around to a different angle that I hadn't noticed before
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Post by Annie on Jan 22, 2005 17:23:17 GMT -5
Glad I could help
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Yumi
dæmian
Human - Yumi ~ Daemon - Eikara (official* cieday - 1/14/05)
Posts: 106
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Post by Yumi on Jan 22, 2005 17:39:23 GMT -5
Just as a sidenote, I have to say that the statement in your signature is so deep...simple on the surface, but amazingly complex when you think about it. Not to mention completely true, in my opinion.
I think that I might understand the perspective that you're coming from, at least to an extent; I've gone through the whole spectrum of searching as well, and I'm pretty mixed up myself. Instead of fitting into one belief set, bits of all the ones that I've learned about over the years seem to have clumped together into something that is both quite confusing and fairly sensible. So I know what it's like to question and doubt...well...just about everything at some point or another, though I come from a slightly different background.
Anyway, the questions you're asking certainly aren't easy ones to answer, at least not for me. But I'll still try to explain what my answers are from my perspective. Maybe it'll help a bit...though my ramblings could easily confuse you even more. If that's the case, I apologize in advance...but it's a bit difficult to take my feelings and explain them in some way that makes sense in words. Also, I might basically say the same things the others have in a different way...I've been known to do that before, so I thought I'd warn you. ^^;;
Knowing exactly how I know, and explaining that, is the hardest part, I think. After all, how can you know for sure that anything is real, unless you can point to it and say, "See, it's right there!" That's the thing about daemons, and the soul and/or spirit in general. Since you can't touch it, you can't really prove to an outside observer that it's there, not unless they're willing to believe in things that they can't see.
And to be totally honest, it is completely possible that my conversations with my own daemon really are just me answering my own questions. But I know how my mind works - well, not always, but most of the time - and I can generally tell when I'm talking to myself. (Because I do it a lot...) I'm under no illusions that it's all me at those times. But the personality behind the that I feel are my daemon's comments are different from the ones I make to myself. As an example, I'll use an event a few days ago.
I needed to get up and go run a few errands...but it was cold out, and snowing, and I did not want to even leave the warmth and comfort of my bedroom. When I started trying to rationalize staying in and putting this task off, however, I heard a voice in my head saying, "You need to get this done now, so get up! The sooner you get this done, the sooner you can come home." And this voice would not be denied, either. It poked, prodded, pestered, and basically irritated me until I got up just to make it be quiet...at which point it radiated smug self-satisfaction. If this had just been me talking to myself, I think that I would have been able to silence it...and even if that point is debatable, I can't imagine why, when I was grumbling and looking for warm clothes, I would feel/sense such a pleased sort of smirk coming from some other part of me. That is, unless that other part of me was my daemon. I know, it could be said that it was all just my conscience...but I believe that that's part of what my daemon is anyway.
Kara is also that side of me that cajoles, nudges, or - if needed - kicks me when I'm slacking, encourages me when I doubt myself, talks sense and logic at me when I want it least (and need it most), comforts me when I'm sad, and randomly makes some funny comment in my head that makes me smile, even when I'm angry at bad weather and rush hour traffic. She's the free side of me, the one that can say whatever she wants, because I'm the only one that can hear it anyway. She does the things that I would do if I wasn't worried about what other people might think about them. So I can understand why you would feel that presence when there was no one around to tell you what to do; maybe it's easier to sense that side of you at times when you are able to enjoy things without restriction.
It's possible that I could simply be imagining the presence of my own daemon, but yet I don't think that it is, because I've also had that same feeling that you mentioned - like there was someone there with me, though there's nothing physically taking up that space - even before I knew what daemons were. (And I read the first book about as long ago as you did, so it's been a while.) I don't think that sensation would make itself known unless there was a reason for it. Perhaps it was you enjoying yourself...but technically, since your daemon is a part of you, it's possible that it's both at once. It's as much you as it is your daemon, because the two of you really are one being, when all is said and done. But at the same time, you may have slightly different personalities and opinions about certain things. I think that's the main way that you can tell the two of you apart.
And on the subject of imagination...it's sometimes a very thin line between imaginary friends and daemons, at least in my experience. It probably isn't like that for everyone, though. The only reason why I say this is because I'm an avid roleplayer and writer, and I'm very used to feeling a character's presence in my mind when I really connect to that personality and mindset. So, why don't I think that Kara is another character I made up? To be honest, I can't really say...it's just a feeling that I get. I don't know how to explain how I know something that I can never prove to someone else...I guess you can compare it to love, in a way. You can know that you love someone without knowing exactly when you began to feel that way, or why you feel that way. It's next to impossible to pick out the qualities of a person that you care for and really say that those are the reasons why you love that person. True, those are things that you like about them...but taken alone, or even added together, they don't equal up to that sort of strong feeling, the kind that's unmistakeable. If there was another person with those exact same qualities, that doesn't mean that you would feel the same about that person as the one that you love. There's some element there that makes it different from any other experience...and I think it's the same way with daemons.
Okay, I know that proves nothing...but when it comes down to it, I don't know if it's possible to take anything that even touches on spirituality and prove it. I think that there's nothing wrong in doubting - better to doubt knowingly and think about it than to believe blindly and not know why - but at the same time, it's hard to explain a lack of doubt, too. I know that my daemon's real because I know that I'm real, and because the explanations and definitions I've read come far too close to my own experiences and feelings for me to completely dismiss the idea. Maybe part of it is because I'm willing to believe in it, and because I like the idea of having a daemon...but even if I thought that this was all craziness and nothing more, that voice that I can't ignore would still be in my head, just as it's always been. I would just call it by the same name that I use for myself, as I have for the past 20 years. The only thing that's really changed is that I listen to it more now, and so I hear it more often, and that has helped me in a hundred tiny ways, even after such a short time.
As for interacting with my daemon, I'm still working on that part myself. I can only really "see" or "feel" Kara when my eyes are closed, and it doesn't work when I try to make things happen. It's like writing for me...if I force it, nothing happens, but when I go with the flow, it all falls into place. I hear her all the time, though...or at least when she has something to say. As I mentioned before, she's the side of me that doesn't always think the same way that I do, or say things the same way that I would say them, so it's a bit easier for me to tell. Visualizing your daemon first might help when it comes to telling his or her comments apart from your own, though.
My advice on names is a bit less helpful, I think...because it's just to go with whatever comes to mind. If writing it down helps, do that, too. It's what I did - I tried different spellings that went with the sort of sound/sensation I had when thinking of what her name might be, and when I got the right one, I knew because it felt right. For the first few days, I didn't even ask her what her name should be, or try to come up with one, because I knew my mind would make up something to fill in the blank whether it was the best fit or not. But maybe thinking about it will work better for you...just don't try to make the name fit if it doesn't sit right with you.
As for how I know it's real... *shrugs a bit* Life is subjective to begin with, and when it comes to emotions and beliefs, it's even harder to pin down. It is because I think it is, as well as because I want it to be, but I don't really see anything wrong with that. Most of what I believe to be true about life and the world is based on my own opinions anyway, and no one's going to agree with every belief that I hold. The same applies in reverse - what one person thinks is real, especially in regards to spirituality, might not fit me. It all depends on what you think is best for you, and what you're comfortable with. In my opinion, if feels right for you, then it is.
Hopefully my answers helped you a little. I don't have the kind of history that some do with their daemons, so I'm basing this off of the little I know from my own week of conversion with Kara and parallels that I can see in past thoughts and experiences of my own.
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Post by cock of teh walk on Jan 22, 2005 17:43:31 GMT -5
Think about this topic much?
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kirjavaa
dæmian
[Bane] -searching for answers-
Posts: 124
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Post by kirjavaa on Jan 22, 2005 18:55:40 GMT -5
First off, thank you for the compliment on my sig, Yumi...You're all too kind.
Seccondly, thank you for writing so extensivley on your beliefs and experiences. You've helped me to gain new perspective on this subject, and helped me understand what it is that I beleive regarding it. Thank you so much <3
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Post by SNL_Ali on Jan 22, 2005 21:44:01 GMT -5
First off congrats to Yumi for a freakin' awesome post.....lots of thought went into that, and I salute that. I know my experiencew with Tyb has been a rocky one. It was during a time of great trial and tribulation in my life when I came across Okibi's website, and at first I thought it was a crazy-go-nuts sort of thing to believe in, and I didn't think much of it at all. Of course, I couldn't get the concept out of my mind, and I remember that night I went to my bed and lay down to think about stuff like I always do, and a funny sort of conversation ensued....I'll paraphrase... That is so weird. I wonder how speaking to a daemon works in this world..... Who knows? In a way it kind of makes sense You think so? I mean, how would it work? Beats me! Figure it out yourself! ..........Hello? Hi. ::::Kinda went like that. I went back to the site the next day to find out more, came to the forum, and started realizing that it wasn't that crazy a concept. My beliefs on everything are a little bit different....even when people say they don't have beliefs they always do....beliefs never FIT you, you FIT the beliefs. I doubt you'll ever come across a person who completely 100% supports their religion/beliefs, they always like bits and pieces and question other bits and pieces. Kinda random point, but I thought I'd put that in. XD I think Yumi pretty much covered everything I wanted to say. I guess. Heh, nothing particularly interesting to contribute....just basically that when wei chat--its natural. It flows, it feels like second nature. I've never had an imaginary friend before, so I didn't know what it would feel like. Probably a bit different than what Tyb and I have....but who knows. When I see him, its random, not really planned or taken a great ammount of effort......its a little bit tougher sometimes. And my advice: NEVER assume your daemon is settled upon meeting it; I did the same with Tyb after first meeting him, and about two months ago he had a changing spree that really wasn't fun. And now hei's a different shape, so basically NEVER ASSUME UNTIL YOU KNOW! Heh. There's my two bits. Thanks!
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kirjavaa
dæmian
[Bane] -searching for answers-
Posts: 124
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Post by kirjavaa on Jan 22, 2005 22:06:31 GMT -5
SNLObsess, it sounds like the conversations that you've had echo a lot of the conversations I have with myself before I'm going to sleep or when I have quiet momments when all I can do is think, so I'm definitley feeling more optimistic about all of this.
As for his settled form, as I said before, I'm nearly twenty, with peuberty ending a very long time ago...What's more, when I went off to college I achieved a much fuller sense of self then I had ever experienced before, and even if I didn't see my daemon settle, I knew that my soul had settled into the way it was going to be for the rest of my life. So, even though I'm a newcomer to seeing and connnecting with him, I'm fairly certain that he's not going to change much from here on in.
This is so exciting...the more I hear about your different experiences, the easier I find to beleive and reach out to him...So exciting.
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Post by SNL_Ali on Jan 22, 2005 22:15:55 GMT -5
Isn't it? Daemons aren't that weird a concept if you think about it--children grew up with imaginary friends, when teens write in diaries they often direct them to some unknown person, adults often do the same, its not that strange. And really natural if you think about it. I'm glad your'e feeling a bit better about it all--any more questions while we're at it? ;D
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Post by Key & Nax on Jan 23, 2005 7:26:45 GMT -5
Well, I don't know how much help I can be. I'm certainly not as eloquent or world-wise or anywhere near as coherent as some of the others here (especially Yumi: Your post... how can I put this? It rocks!). Anyway, I thought I'd try to answer When I first met my dæmon, I needed him. Badly. I felt like everything was wrong, life was pointless and I had nobody to talk to - basically, I was feeling sorry for myself and going through a teenage angst phase. I found Okibi's site and I'll admit that I was so happy with the idea of a loving, lifelong companion who shared your pain and joy that I didn't want to question it. I'd been fascinated byt the concept of dæmons since I'd read HDM and I was always wondering, "If I had a dæmon, what would his name be? What would he settle as?" Actually, that's how I found out his name - I must have been about ten or eleven years old when I first read Northen Lights/The Golden Compass and when I asked myself what my dæmon's name would be, the answer just came into my head like a someone switching on a light - Panaka. I saw it spelt that way, heard it in my mind, and that was that. I think it might have been Nax himself who told me his name, but at that point I was still pretending, like kids do. I didn't think that dæmons were real. Anyway, I had trouble envisioning him at first - it came with months of practice. I loved the feeling of 'seeing' him roaring at people as a tiger, I loved 'touching' his soft panther fur, I loved 'hearing' this voice in the back of my head offer random comments and jokes and words of comfort. (OK, I did think I was a bit crazy to begin with, but I didn't mind - I'm curious by nature and I wanted to find out more) When he talked, it was hard for me to distinguish between my voice and his - I'd been talking to myself for years and I thought, "What if this is just me answering myself? But I didn't need to worry because I just kept on talking and letting myself listen to what came back in reply and eventually we sorted ourselves out. It definitely helped me to imagine my dæmon sitting beside me or in front me and then talk to him, because it made it easier to tell who was speaking. It takes some imagination to see or feel your dæmon, or sometimes it comes naturally in times when you've zoned out from the world and are connected, as it were, to those things that are spiritual rather than physical, like just before you go to sleep or right after you've woken up. At least, that's the way it happnes with me, I'm sure there are differences between each person. I don't see Panaka unless I'm concentrating on seeing him - I'm used to it by now so I can just save a tiny corner of my brain for concentrating on envisioning him and leave the rest to take in everything else around me. Well, Panaka changed me. He snapped me out of self-pity pretty darn quickly. He nagged, teased, ribbed, coaxed and snapped at me. He sort of burst onto the stage with a very explosive and wild personality which made him hard to pass off as a figment of my imagination and hard to ignore. I loved him, and began to like myself. I'm a much nicer person because of him. Having him to talk to and trust and having his unwavering faith and devotion for me (not that he lets me think I can get away with being big-headed) was the best thing that has ever happened to me. Cheesy, but true I have doubted and questioned his existance in the past, but if he was just something I conjured up for entertainment or companionship I think I'd get bored quickly. As it is, I never tire of him being there and I really do love him. I don't think it would be possible to really love him if he wasn't real. If I had just made him up, I don't think he would be able to pester me to do my homework and tidy my room or growl at me when I'm worrying uselessly over something or comfort and calm me when I'm upset. He is irreversible - even if I wanted to, there is no way I could make him go away. More than anything, I just... know. I don't have much evidence to back it up, but I suppose I simply believe. Sorry for being so long and boring >.<' I think I've mainly repeated what other people have said and talked about myself endlessly for about four hours, but I hope it might be of some help to you!
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Post by Zoe 'n' Calosta on Jan 23, 2005 9:56:41 GMT -5
I've had a ton of imaginary friends, even up until I met Cal! It is kinda embarassing but it was my way of coping, of not feeling alone. I really cant remember how I began talking to Cal because as I've mentioned I (sort of) knew him before I came across Okibi's site but I assumed he was just another imaginary friend, even though it felt different. It was just that as I carried on eading that he sort of appeared and I said something along the lines of 'so you're my daemon?' Oh and SNL - You are soooo right about the settling thing (I made a thread in Daemian Chat so go check it out! ;D) and for now he's a panther. You're daemon can surprise you a lot, if I was controlling Cal I would never have thought - ohh he'll unexpectedly turn into a wolf! Just a lil example
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